Discussion:
Hvad er bevidsthed?
(for gammel til at besvare)
Jahnu
2021-06-29 23:49:07 UTC
Permalink
Verden er ad helvede til, hvis man ikke er lykkelig. Så er det
ligemeget hvor godt andre har det. Hvis DU ikke har det godt, så er
det ad helvede til. Og i det moderne samfund lærer folk ikke hvordan,
de kan formilde og omgås naturen, så den opfylder deres ønsker, og de
får det godt. De tror, de kan betvinge naturen med teknologi.

Men naturen kan ikke betvinges med teknologi. Den kan kun betvinges
gennem psykisk kraft. Naturen er en psyke, et levende væsen, en
person. Hvis vi omgås med hende som om hun var død materie, så omgås
hun med os som om vi var død materie. Hvilket vi i så fald også er,
for hvis vi kun er bevidste om vores krop og dens kultur, så er vi så
godt som døde indeni. Så er vi ikke bedre end hunde og katte. Naturen
er en gudinde, en kvinde. Vi kalder hende endda moder jord. Og vi ved
alle hvilket helvedes hyr, man får, hvis vi ikke behandler vores
kvinder ordentligt.

Når bevidstheden ikke ser sig selv og handler udelukkende af lyst, er
den på et lavt udviklingstrin. Ateistisk bevidsthed er en begrænsning
af bevidstheden, fordi man er ubevidst om den personlige dimension i
tilværelsen. Man ser alting ting som ting. Man ser sig selv som en
ting. Man er blot nogle atomer, der lige fandt sammen i den rigtige
kombination for at danne bevidsthed. For en ateist er naturen bare en
ting, man kan udvinde resurser fra. For en person i åndelig bevidsthed
er naturen en gudinde, man ærer og respekterer. Hvis man ikke gør det,
bliver hun meget vred, og når naturen bliver vred, går det af helvede
til. Det er ikke et spørgsmål om tro eller ej. Det er et beviseligt
faktum, at når vi behandler naturen dårligt, får det det skadelige
konsekvenser.

Det spiller simpelthen ingen rolle hvad man kalder sig selv - kristen,
hindu, ateist eller socialdemokrat - hvis man ikke følger naturens
regler (som de er beskrevet i Vedaerne), så går det ad helvede til, og
ikke alverdens teknologi kan redde os. Det eneste, der kan redde os,
er i det mindste at udvikle en holistisk bevidsthed. Hvis man ikke kan
acceptere Krishna som den Højeste, kan man i det mindste acceptere et
holistisk livssyn. Et holistisk livssyn, er hvor man ser alle levende
væsener, inklusive sig selv, som dele af den samme helhed. Hvis man
påfører et andet levende væsen smerte, skader man sig selv, for man er
dele af den samme helhed.

De fleste moderne mennesker er ateister. Selvom de kalder sig
alverdens ting som kristne, hinduer, jøder, muslimer osv, har de ingen
åndelig forståelse. De er ikke selvrealiserede, for de ser kun deres
krop og dens kultur, de ser ikke deres egen bevidsthed. - de ser ikke
observanten.

De har ikke engang en holistisk forståelse, eller hvis de har, så
handler de ikke på den, Hvorom alting er, så er det et sygdomstegn i
et samfund, når flertallet er materialister. Når flertallet i
samfundet behandler naturen som en ting i stedet for som en person, så
straffer naturen os for vore forbrydelser i form af katastrofer og
sygdom og alskens elendigheder. Det er det scenario vi befinder os i
lige nu. Kun folk, der lever i uvidenhed om deres egen bevidsthed, kan
ikke indse dette indlysende faktum, og fordi de er i flertal, går
samfundet ad helvede til.

Det eneste, man kan gøre, for at lave om på det, er at lave om på sig
selv. Man kan ikke lave om på andre mennesker og man kan heller ikke
lave om på verden. Det eneste, man kan lave om på, er sig selv. Hvis
man forbliver i ateistisk bevidsthed, gør man skade på sig selv, for
man sænker sin bevidsthed ned på et lavere niveau, et niveau hvor
alting er focuseret på kroppen og kroppens relationer.

Ateistisk bevidsthed er kun to trin over dyrebevidsthed. På den
evolutionære skala er der 4 stadier af bevidsthed - dyrebevidsthed,
primitiv menneskelig bevidsthed, civiliseret menneskelig bevidsthed,
og guddommelig bevidsthed. I civiliseret bevidsthed kan man enten være
ateist eller religiøs, men alle følger de samme moralske regler og har
de samme værdier, der går ud på at udnytte naturen for deres egen
nydelse. Indenfor guddommelig bevidsthed findes også flere
gradueringer. I den ene ende af skalaen er der holistisk
helhedsbevidsthed (Brahman-bevidsthed), og i den anden er der
krishnabevidsthed. Krishna-bevidsthed betyder, at man er bevidst om
det Højeste væsen, og befinder sig i den proces, der gradvist tillader
en at overgive sig til Krishnas nydelse.

I åndelig bevidsthed er alting focuseret på Krishna. Hvis alle levende
væsener kan focusere deres bevidsthed på Krishna, bliver de helt
lykkelige og tilfredse... det er garanteret. Krishna garanterer
personligt dette.

Krishna siger:

Min kære Arjuna, eftersom du aldrig er misundelig på Mig, vil Jeg
hermed give dig denne mest fortrolige kundskab og indsigt. Når du
kender den, vil du blive frigjort for alle den materielle eksistens
elendigheder. (Bg. 9.1)

Denne viden er kongen over al uddannelse og den mest fortrolige af
alle hemmeligheder. Det er den reneste viden, og eftersom den giver en
direkte opfattelse af selvet gennem indsigt, er det religionens
fuldkommenhed. Den varer evigt og udføres med glæde. (Bg. 9.2)

I denne tid er den højeste bevidsthed blevet gjort let tilgængelig,
fordi Gud er kærlig mod sine forvildede dele, og Han ved godt, at folk
er extra dumme og uintelligente i Kaliyuga - den nuværende tidsalder
af strid og hykleri - så Han har sendt sit navn og sagt, at ved blot
at udtale det navn, Krishna, (eller kristus, hvis man er kristen) så
kan man opnå befrielse fra lidelse i den materielle verden. Det er i
virkeligheden det, alle længes efter, men pga. af fordomme og
indokrinering, tror man, at man kan blive lykkelig på anden vis. Men
der er ingen anden måde at blive lykkelig på, end ved at opgive sit
falske ego (krops og sinds egoet)og overgive sig til Krishnas
kærlighed.

I åndelig bevidsthed bliver man lykkelig ved at lade sin sjæle blive
nydt af Krishna, og i materiel bevidsthed bliver man lykkelig ved at
nyde sin krop og sind. Så vi kan nok se, at de fleste mennesker, selv
de der kalder sig religiøse, i virkeligheden er materialister. Ligesom
ateister vil de heller ikke vide noget om Gud.

Den vediske virkelighedsforklaring har intet med tro at gøre. Det er
noget, man kan vide noget om. Hvis det pga fordomme er folk imod at
kalde det Krishna, kan de bare kalde det noget andet, men sandheden
er, at hvis hver enkel person ikke tager ansvar for at udvikle sin
bevidsthed mod højere niveauer, nu når han eller hun har chancen i den
menneskelige livsform, så vil man af naturen blive sat ned i en
lavere livsform næste gang. Når vi nu er blevet oplyst om alt dette,
er det let at forstå, at det er vores pligt at advare mod faren ved at
udvikle en ateistisk mentalitet.

Krishna siger:

De, der således er forvirrede, tiltrækkes af dæmoniske og ateistiske
anskuelser. I denne vildledte tilstand, bliver alle deres håb om
befrielse, deres frugtstræbende handlinger, og deres udvikling af
viden altsammen forpurrede. (Bg. 9.12)
Lyrik
2021-06-30 14:53:57 UTC
Permalink
Min kære Arjuna, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Hvem var Arjuna og hvornår og hvor levede han? Og hvad havde han gang i?


mvh
jenserik
Jahnu
2021-07-01 04:36:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lyrik
Hvem var Arjuna og hvornår og hvor levede han? Og hvad havde han gang i?
Prøv at læse Mahabharata. Mahabharata er det længste stykke litteratur
i verdenshistorien. Bhagavad Gita er oprideligt et kapitel i
Mahabharata. Den er længere en både Illiaden, Odysseen, Biblen og
Koranan tilsammen. Jeg mener, den kan fås i en forkortet udgave på
dansk, af Guni Martin.

Alle har deres egen personlige opfattelse af tilværelsen, hvadenten
den er teistisk, socialdemokratisk, videnskabelig eller ateistisk, Det
spiller ingen rolle, hvad man kalder sin livstil og sine værdinormer,
det er ens religion, der er tale om. Således defineres religion i
Vedaerne - dharma - livsstil, essens, normer, det vi idenficerer os
selv med - det er vores religion. Velkommen til Scientisme, folkets ny
religion.

Så kommer der nogen og siger - nej, nej, sådan er det ikke. Alting er
tilfældigt. Normer er intet andet end det, vi gør dem til. Vi
bestemmer selv vores værdier. Vi behøver ingen Gud eller religion til
at trække værdier ned over hovedet på os. Vi kan godt selv finde ud af
det.

Men hvad er det, der tyder på, vi godt kan finde ud af det? Går det
virkeligt godt i verden lige nu?

Og hvad er det for fænomener i naturen, der tyder på, at en enkel
celle skulle være opstået af sig selv (uden intelligent styring) over
meget lang tid? Hvilke fakta er det indenfor naturvidenskaben, der
peger på, at alle de forskellige levende væsener skulle være opstået
fra en enkel amøbe, af sig selv, over meget lang tid?... Ikke det
mindste.

De biologiske og arkæologiske realiteter viser netop, at alle de
forskellige livsarter altid har levet side om side. Der er intet bevis
for, at de forskellige arter skulle være opstået fra en amøbe, der så
voksede ben ud på og lærte at tale. Det er bare noget fup, som folk
bliver fodret med gennem almen uddannelse og en endeløs strøm af natur
programmer, og de æder det råt.

Hvis man afkræver naturvidenskabsmanden bevis på hans teori om, at
alting er opstået af sig selv helt tilfældigt, taler han bare uden om
og leverer et par komplicerede matematiske ligninger for at obfuskere
masserne. Videnskabsmændene er den moderne forbruger-kulturs
ypperstepræster. De må adlydes uden at stille spørgsmål. De kræver
viljeløs overgivelse til at paradigme, der absolut ingen mening, logik
eller sund fornuft indeholder.

Heldigvis ved vi bedre. Det er det, der er så vildt ved Hare Krishna -
vi ved hvem Gud er :)

Krishna siger:

De levende væsener i den materielle verden er Mine evige
fragmentariske dele. Som følge af deres betingede liv, kæmper de en
hård kamp med de seks sanser, sindet indbefattet. (Bg. 15.7)

Det levende væsen i den materielle verden bærer sine forskellige
livsopfattelser med sig fra krop til krop, ligesom vinden bærer en
duft. Således påtager han sig den ene krop efter den anden. (Bg. 15.8)

Det levende væsen, der således får tildelt en ny grov krop, erhverver
sig en særlig slags ører, øjne, tunge, næse og følesans, hvilke
grupperer sig omkring sindet. På den måde nyder han en særlig samling
sanseobjekter. . (Bg. 15.9)

Tåber fatter ikke, hvordan et levende væsen forlader sin krop, og de
fatter heller ikke, hvilken slags krop han nyder under fortryllelse
fra naturens kvaliteter. Men med kundskabens øjne kan man se alt
dette. (Bg. 15.10)

En stræbende transcendentalist, der er selvrealiseret, kan se det hele
klart. Men de, hvis sind ikke er udviklede, som ikke er forankrede i
selvrealisation, fatter ikke, hvad der foregår, end ikke selvom de
forsøger. (Bg. 15. 11)
Lyrik
2021-07-01 05:48:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jahnu
Post by Lyrik
Hvem var Arjuna og hvornår og hvor levede han? Og hvad havde han gang i?
Prøv at læse Mahabharata. Mahabharata er det længste stykke litteratur
i verdenshistorien.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Jeg kan ikke læse verdens længste bog for at få svar på hvem Arjuna var!
Du har læst den? Hvad med at du med egne ord svarer mig?
Post by Jahnu
En stræbende transcendentalist, der er selvrealiseret, kan se det hele
klart. Men de, hvis sind ikke er udviklede, som ikke er forankrede i
selvrealisation, fatter ikke, hvad der foregår, end ikke selvom de
forsøger. (Bg. 15. 11)
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Det bringer mig frem til spørgsmålet:" Hvordan har din familie modtaget
din selvrealisation"? Havde du ikke to døtre, så vidt jeg husker?
Fik de læst Krishna-børnebøger i stedet for Rasmus Klump?

Kan du ikke svæve ned til jorden og manifestere dig? For øvrigt døde din
gamle discipel, Otto, ham som kaldte Prabapard en "Dukke". Vi basker
ikke rundt på jorden med vinger. Vi humper afsted på to skæve ben.


Velkommen hjem Jahnu;-)


Hilsen
jenserik
Jahnu
2021-07-01 23:58:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lyrik
Jeg kan ikke læse verdens længste bog for at få svar på hvem Arjuna var!
Du har læst den? Hvad med at du med egne ord svarer mig?
Hvad med at du får dig en uddannelse, fjols?

Jeg mener, hvem ved ikke hvem Arjuna er, undtagen en eller anden fed
og grim flæskedansker over fra det mørke Jylland?

Krishna siger:

O du sværtbevæbnede, derfor besidder en, hvis sanser tilbageholdes fra
deres objekter, sandelig stabil intelligens. (Bg 2.68)

Hvad der er nat for alle væsener, er tid til vækkelse for den
selvbeherskede, og vækkelsestidspunktet for alle væsener, er nat for
den selvransagende vismand. (Bg 2.69)

En person, der ikke lader sig forstyrre af den uophørlige strøm af
ønsker - der som floder løber ud i havet, selvom havet forbliver
uberørt - kan alene finde fred, men det kan den, der forsøger at
tilfredsstille sådanne ønsker, ikke. (Bg 2.70)

Den, der har opgivet alle former for lyst til sansenydelse, som lever
fri for lyst, som har opgivet enhver form for besiddertrang, og some
er fri for falsk ego - kun en sådan person kan opnå fred. (Bg 2.71)

Dette er vejen til et åndeligt og guddommeligt liv efter at have
opnået hvilket, man aldrig mere vil blive forvirret. Hvis man er
således situeret selv på dødstidspunktet, kan man træde ind i Guds
rige. (Bg 2.72)
@
2021-07-02 08:56:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jahnu
Post by Lyrik
Jeg kan ikke læse verdens længste bog for at få svar på hvem Arjuna var!
Du har læst den? Hvad med at du med egne ord svarer mig?
Hvad med at du får dig en uddannelse, fjols?
Arjuna er en frit opfundet tegneseriefigur, lidt lige som Anders And
Jahnu
2021-07-04 05:32:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by @
Arjuna er en frit opfundet tegneseriefigur, lidt lige som Anders And
Er du åndsvag? Få dig en uddannellse, Kaj.

Modern people have the idea, that just because some literature is very
old and describes fantastic events that defy the modern undertanding
of a natural world, then this literature must certainly be myths and
fantasies.

For instance, Mahabharata is one such piece of literature. In
Mahabharata events are described that totally defy our modern
understanding of physics. But Mahabharata was written by Srila
Vyasadeva. Why would an illustrious and venerated sage like Srila
Vyasadeva - the literary incarnation of God - waste his time by
telling adventure stories for kids? There is no good reason to think
that. Only prejudice and modern, atheistic indoctrination would make a
person think that.

Bhagavad Gita is originally a chapter of the Mahabharata. Bhagavad
Gita is the only book in the world in which, someone claiming to be
God, explains in detail about Himself, the soul and the world and how
everything inter-relates.

The reality-description offered in the Bhagavad Gita by Krishna
according to the three modes of material nature is by far the most
ingenious, sophisticated, consistent and scientific explanation of
reality available on the planet. It's a science that can be tested and
verified like any other science.

Note, that Krishna is the only person so far in human history, who has
defined reality as opposed to illusion or unreality. He has defined
real as that which is eternal and unreal as that which is temporary.

Try and ask a modern scientist, what is his definition of real and
unreal, and see how far you get... You'll get some technical mumbo
jumbo that boils down to - but, but it's all chemicals. That's what
you'll get - something that has absolutely nothing to do with the
reality you live in or the reality you perceive.

So to reject the Vedic literature as mythology, just because it
doesn't fit into the Mickey Mouse conceptions of modern man, is no
less than extremely ignorant.

In the following I have taken the liberty to reproduce an article by
Mr. Desh which establishes Krishna and Mahabharata as a historical
reality.

Krishna and Mahabharata - A Historical Reality

By Desh (Aug. 31, 2009)

Dr Manish Pandit, a nuclear medicine physician from UK is making a
movie on Krishna as a historic figure. Pandit has based his movie on
dates and timelines coming out of scientific based research by
credible evidence based on Archeology, Astronomy and Linguistics,
apart from Oral evidence from Indian tradition. Mahabharat War started
on November 22, 3067 BC. This comes out of astronomical evidence. And
the astronomical juxtapositions are not arbitrary or those that could
happen in any decade or such... but some of them have not happened
since.

They are THAT rare a phenomenon. Saturn at Rohini and Mars at Jyestha
with two eclipses - a Lunar eclipse at Kartik and Solar eclipse at
Jyesth. (these are from Udyoga and Bhisma Parvan).

(1)Amavasya occurs in Jyestha in 19 years

(2) (1) PLUS Solar Eclipse in Jyesth occurs in 340 years.

(3) (2) PLUS Saturn at Rohini occurs ONCE in 7000 years.

So, that constellation in astronomy has NOT occured since Mahabharat.
The date - exact one - when that would have happened is Nov 22, 3067
BC. Update: i found an article which is very well written, which I am
afraid may go away from that site. I have reproduced it at the bottom.
Not only that, but the latter events like destruction of Dwarka (based
on the astronomical events mentioned around that) occur at EXACTLY as
the text says - 36 years later.

Pandit has based his research on work of Dr Narhari Achar (a professor
of physics at the University of Memphis, Tennessee, in the US).
According to Achar, Krishna was born in 3112 BC. However, another
person has used dates and astronomical events to zero in on the dates
of that time, Arun K Bansal. According to him, Krishna was born on
July 21, 3228 BC and departed earth at 2 pm on February 18, 3102 BC.
That is when Kali Yuga is supposed to have started and Dwapar Yug came
to an end. So, Bansal's dates are a few decades prior to Achar's
dates. However, there are more people who side with Dr. Achar (refer
to the article reproduced below). Here are a few dates that can be
identified with respect to the dates by Dr. Achar: § Lord Krishna, on
His final peace mission, set out for Hastinapur on 26th September,
3067 B.C. when the moon was at the asterism Revati.

§ Lord Krishna arrived Hastinapur on 28th September, 3067 B.C., when
the moon was at the asterism Bharani.

§ The full moon and lunar eclipse at Krittika occurred on 29th
September, 3067 B.C.

§ The solar eclipse at Jyestha occurred on 14th October, 3067 B.C.

§ Lord Balarama set out for pilgrimage on 1st November, 3067 B.C.

§ The War began on 22nd November, 3067 B.C.

§ Lord Balarama concluded His pilgrimage on 12th December, 3067 B.C.

§ The winter solstice occurred on 13th January, 3066 B.C.

§ Bhishma died on 17th January, 3066 B.C.

§ The comet Mahaghora appeared at the asterism Pushya in October, 3066
B.C.

Mahabharat dates and Historical Events

Interestingly, the decades when Dwapar Yuga is supposed to have ended
and Kali Yug supposed to have started as per these dates.. were also
the years of some MAJOR climatic shift on earth - due most probably to
major shifts in Solar Activity! Some of the MAJOR things that
happened:

§ Sahara region changed from a habitable land to a barren desert!

§ Glaciers Expanded covering plants.

§ Atmospheric temperatures fell drastically.

This was also the time, when Harrapan Civilization or Sindhu-Saraswati
Civilization is supposed to have began.

Some people believe that Mahabharat was a Nuclear War. Why? Because of
some explanations that defy contemporary knowledge of weapons that
people of THAT time could conceivably have created. Weapons with such
impact could not have been conjured up just out of nowhere..
REPEATEDLY.. in various parts of the text. See below for one such
description of its effects. It is not surprising that even in the
modern world, Robert Oppenheimer, Nuclear Scientist jumped up after
seeing the Atomic blast and cited a similar verse from Gita (part of
Mahabharat).

Now, if you see the extreme climactic changes - creation of desert out
of habitable land in Sahara and drastic fall in atmospheric
temperature as if Solar Activity had changed - it may not be entirely
unlikely, that those climatic shifts may have mimicked a Nuclear
Winter.

Mahabharat is a fantastic epic and one which would have required MORE
than just imagination to write. No writer has ever written something
so completely OUT of whack with his times, mores and thinking... as a
Mahabharat within the context of History as taught in our school texts
suggests. It seems so fantastic that even the idea seems absurd! That
alone - the imagination of a writer 5000 years ago to write something
that (if linera historical progress is taken to be true) ONLY people
of today could have been/heard/experienced/imagined!

Its not just wishful imagination - as parting of seas et al - but very
exact descriptions of things that happen today and could happen
tomorrow. The philosophy of Gita is hitherto unparalleled in the
spiritual realm. No Saint, prophet, Master, or mystic has covered so
many topologies - Knowledge, Devotion, Action, - with so much mastery.
What I am trying to say is that you cannot get something out of
nowhere. You can only conjure up stuff that is there in your immediate
consciousness.

Fantasies and miracles in knowledge dont make sense to me! An
incandescent column of smoke and flame, as bright as ten thousand
suns, rose with all its splendour. It was an unknown weapon, an iron
thunderbolt, a gigantic messenger of death, which reduced to ashes the
entire race of the Vrishnis and the Andhakas. The corpses were so
burned as to be unrecognizable. Hair and nails fell out; Pottery broke
without apparent cause, and the birds turned white. .After a few hours
all foodstuffs were infected. .to escape from this fire the soldiers
threw themselves in streams to wash themselves and their equipment.”

Reference Links:

1. 'Lord Krishna existed. School texts are wrong'

2. Krishna (b. July 21, 3228 BC)

3. 33rd century BC

4. Pre-historic Nuclear War and ancient Flying Aircraft uncovered
Historicity of Mahabharat

In January 2001, Indian History Congress was holding its Annual
Conference at the Alipur Campus of the University of Calcutta and at
the concluding session of the said Conference the Nobel Laureate
economist Dr. Amartya Sen, while addressing the delegates, said that
Ramayana and Mahabharata do not have any historical value. These two
epics are simply mythology and nothing but poets’ fancy. He also said
that neither Rama nor Krishna was a historical personality and both of
them were simply mythical. Gandhiji wrote two commentaries on
Shrimadbhagavadgita, Anasaktiyoga and Gitabodha, and in the
introduction of the former work, he wrote, “Generally Mahabharata is
taken to be a historical work.

But in my opinion, it is not so. I cannot say that Ramayana and
Mahabharata are historical works. They are simply religious works. If
you are still inclined to treat them as historical works, then I
should say that they are nothing but the history of the Self (Atma).
They do not contain what happened thousands of years ago. On the
contrary, they are the reflections of what is happening today in every
soul”.

About Lord Krishna, he wrote, ”Krishna of Gita is the embodiment of
pure and divine knowledge, but without having any physical existence.
By this the Avatar Krishna is not denied at all, but only it is said
that He is mythical”. It is not difficult to understand that all such
utterances of Sen, Gandhi and many other like minded Indians derive
inspiration from the Western interpretation of Indian history. Most of
the Western scholars firmly believe that our ancestors grossly
neglected writing history and what we claim to be our history is
nothing but mythology. So M. Winternitz in his History of Indian
Literature writes, “History is one weak spot in Indian literature. It
is, in fact, non-existent.

The total lack of historical sense is so characteristic that the whole
course of Sanskrit literature is darkened by the defect”. The renowned
German scholar Max Muller, in his History of Ancient Sanskrit
Literature, writes, “No wonder that a nation like India cared so
little for history”. “With regard to history, the Hindus have done
really nothing but romances from which some truth may occasionally be
extracted”, says another Western scholar Major Wilford. These scholars
refuse to accept Ramayana, Mahabharata and the Puranas as historical
works as there are no mention of year and dates of the events
described therein.

But people of this country firmly believe that Ramayana, Mahabharata
and the Puranas are their history and not simply epics or poets’
fancy. So Dr. S. Kalyanaraman, the director of the Chennai based
Saraswati River Research Centre, says that the historicity of the
events described in Ramayana and Mahabharata is validated by two
evidences: one is based on tradition and the other is based on
jyotisha, or planetary configurations and other celestial events
narrated along with mundane events described in those epics, which may
be called sky epigraphs.

So far tradition is concerned, people of this nation believe that Lord
Rama was born on the day of Ramanavami and Lord Krishna was born on
the day of Janmastami and so on. In fact, there is a long list of such
traditional beliefs such as: Bhishma died on the Bhishmastami day, on
the day of Vijaya Dashami, Lord Rama celebrated the day, with His
army, as the day of victory after killing Ravana and defeating his
army just on the previous day, on the day of Deepavali, Lord Rama
returned to Ayodhya after 14 years of exile and the people of Ayodhya
celebrated the day and decorated their houses by lighting lamps and
the tradition is still being continued; the War of Kurukshetra began
on the day of Gita Jayanti and so on and so forth. It is really
strange that the people of Western Garhwal, now in the state of
Uttaranchal, observe every year the Duryodhana Festival.

There also exists a temple dedicated to Duryodhana where people offer
their puja and many believe that the city of Varanavat, where
Duryodhana tried to burn the Pandavas alive, was situated in that
locality. It is also really striking that people of this country offer
water in memory of Bhishma during shraddha ceremony. The point to be
highlighted here is that, had all these been poets’ fancy and
mythical, the traditions could not have been continued for such a long
time.

The aspect of celestial epigraph, or planetary positions described in
these epics, particularly in Mahabharata, undoubtedly shows that the
said epics do mention the dates of events described therein, which the
Western scholars failed miserably to understand. In Mahabharata alone
there are 150 instances where worldly events are mentioned along with
the planetary positions in the sky. And, in addition to that, other
astronomical events such as occurrence of an eclipse, or appearance of
a comet, or rare events like shower of meteorites have been mentioned.

A few of such examples may be mentioned below The Udyoga Parva of
Mahabharata narrates that, just before the War, Lord Krishna, in His
final peace mission, went to Hastinapur in the month of Kartika. He
set out on the day when moon was at the asterism Revati. On His way to
Hastinapur, Krishna took rest for a day at a place called Brikasthala,
and on that day the moon was at the asterism Bharani.

The day on which Duryodhana turned down each and every effort of Lord
Krishna to make peace and made the war inevitable, the moon was
resting at the asterism Pushya. And the Lord left Hastinapura with
Karna, on the day when the moon was yet to reach the asterism Uttara
Phalguni. As mentioned above, Karna accompanied Him to some distance
to see Him off and he then described to the Lord the positions of
planets in the sky and expressed his apprehension that such a
planetary configuration stood for very bad omen: such as large scale
loss of life and drenching of blood. Vyasadeva narrated all these
planetary positions in as many as sixteen verses as if someone was
describing it after visualizing them in the sky. It is also well known
that during the War, Lord Balarama went on a pilgrimage to holy places
along the banks of the River Saraswati and Mahabharata describes the
position of the moon during the entire course of pilgrimage.

For example, He set out on the day when the moon was at the asterism
Pushya and returned on the day when the moon was at the asterism
Shravana.

The Mahabharata also mentions the occurrence of a solar eclipse at the
asterism Jyestha and a lunar eclipse at the asterism Krittika, just
before the beginning of the War. It also mentions the appearance of a
comet at the asterism Pushya, on the 8th day of the bright half of the
month of Magha, when Bhishma died. On that day the moon was at the
asterism Rohini and it was the day of Winter Solstice.

The day on which Ghatotkacha, son of Bhima, died, the moon appeared at
the horizon at 2.00 a.m. The epic also mentions the occurrence of a
very rare astronomical event that took place prior to the War: three
eclipses, two lunar and a solar, within a lunar month of 27 days.
There is also another continuing tradition in this country that says
that the beginning of the present Kali Yuga, Kurukshetra War, death of
Lord Krishna and coronation of Emperor Yudhishthira were contemporary
events.

Famous astronomer Aryabhatta in his celebrated work Aryabhatiyam had
accepted the said tradition and used the word “Bharatapurvam” in the
said work very often and scholars agree that he used the word to refer
to such events that occurred before the Mahabharata War. In 1991, Dr.
D. Abhayankar and Dr. Ballabh of the Osmania University calculated
that the present Kali Yuga began on 7th February, 3104 B.C. But it is
now well accepted by the both Eastern and the Western scholars that
the present Kali Yuga began on the midnight of 17th and 18th February,
3102 B.C. And hence it can roughly be said that the Mahabharata War
took place nearly 5000 years ago from now.

Today, man has created a machine called computer which, though most
idiotic, can do mathematical calculations at an incredible speed.
According to a popular ad of a computer company, the calculations
which Johannes Kepler took ten years to complete, can be done today
within minutes, using a computer. It has therefore been possible for
the scientists, with the help of this fantastic machine, to determine
the dates of ancient events with unthinkable accuracy, using the
planetary configurations given in the Mahabharata , as inputs.

They have developed so many software for this purpose and to name a
few are: (1) Planetarium, (2) Ecliptic, (3) Lode star and the(4)
Panchang Software. In 2003, a two day seminar was held on 5th and 6th
January, in Bangalore, on “The Date of Mahabharata War: Based on
Astronomical Data Using Planetarium Software”, and a few of the
eminent researchers who submitted papers were (1) Dr. S. Balakrishna
of NASA, USA; (2) Dr. B. N. Narahari Achar, Department of Physics,
Memphis University, USA; (3) Dr. R. N. Iyengar, Department of Civil
Engineering, IISc, Bangalore; (4) Dr. S. Kalyanaraman, Saraswati River
Research Centre, Chennai and so on.

These scientists agree that there does not exist any contradiction
between any two descriptions of planetary configurations given in the
Mahabharata. Dr. S. Balakrishna has studied the eclipses, both solar
and lunar, described in the Mahabharata and tried to find out the
dates of those eclipses using the Lode Star Software. Generally 240
solar and 150 lunar eclipses occur in a century and during the period
from 3300 B.C. to 700 B.C. nearly 6000 solar and 4000 lunar eclipses
took place, though not all of them were visible from India, or to be
more precise, from Kurukshetra. Out of them, 672 were eclipse pairs,
or both solar and lunar eclipses within a lunar month. Dr. Balakrishna
studied the eclipses those have been mentioned in the text of
Mahabharata. In fact, there are mentions of solar eclipses at 8 places
in Mahabharata, out of which three of them are very important.

Firstly, the solar eclipse that is mentioned in the Sabha Parva. The
second solar eclipse which is mentioned in the Udyoga Parva to which
Karna tried to draw the attention of Lord Krishna when He was
returning from Hastinapur. The third important solar eclipse has been
mentioned in the Shalya Parva, that occurred along with two lunar
eclipses within a month. Many believe that there was a total solar
eclipse occurred on the 13th day of the War, which has been
allegorically mentioned as covering the sun by Lord Krishna with is
His Sudarshan Chakra.

The epic Mahabharata has so many other aspects which common people do
not know. Firstly, the epic as we see it today containing 100,000
verses was not the creation of Vedavyasa. He composed what was then
known as the Jai, containing only 8,800 verses. Later on Rishi
Vaishampayana enlarged it to contain 24,000 verses which was then
known as the Bharata. Finally Sauti, the son of the suta (the chariot
driver) Lomaharshana, gave it present form as we see now, containing
100,000 verses.

It has been mentioned earlier that just prior to the Mahabharata War,
a very rare event of three eclipses occurring within a lunar month
took place: a lunar eclipse followed by a solar one and then another
lunar eclipse. According to the text of Mahabharata, the solar eclipse
occurred just 13 days after the first lunar eclipse. Dr. S.
Balakrishna of NASA, USA, has searched all eclipse pairs, a lunar
eclipse followed by a solar eclipse after 13 days, that took place
from 3300 B.C. to 700 B.C., using the Lodestar pro-software.

He found that nearly 672 eclipse pairs have occurred within the said
period, out of which 27 pairs have been found to have less than 14
days time gap. And according to Dr. Balakrishna, the eclipse pair of
2559 is the best match with the description given in the text of
Mahabharata. But according to Dr. Kalyanaraman, the eclipses occurred
in 3067 B.C.- the lunar eclipse on 29th September at the asterism
Krittika and the solar eclipse on 14th October at the asterism
Jyestha. Researcher Dr. P. V. Holay examined 6 planetary
configurations given in the Mahabharata and concluded that the War
began on 13th November, 3143 B.C.

But Dr. K. S. Raghavan and his coworker Dr. G. S. Sampath Iyengar,
using the Planetarium software came to the conclusion that the
Kurukshetra War began on 22nd day of November, 3067 B.C. (according to
the present Gregorian calendar). Professor Dr. Narahari Achar of the
University of Memphis, USA, also arrived at the same conclusion using
the said Planetarium software. Dr. S. Kalyanaraman of the Saraswati
River Research Centre, Chennai, found the estimates of Dr. K. S.
Raghavan and Dr. Narahari Achar correct and, on that basis, calculated
the dates of some other important events of Mahabharata. For example:
Lord Krishna, on His final peace mission, set out for Hastinapur on
26th September, 3067 B.C. when the moon was at the asterism Revati.
Lord Krishna arrived Hastinapur on 28th September, 3067 B.C., when the
moon was at the asterism Bharani. The full moon and lunar eclipse at
Krittika occurred on 29th September, 3067 B.C.

The solar eclipse at Jyestha occurred on 14th October, 3067 B.C. Lord
Balarama set out for pilgrimage on 1st November, 3067 B.C. The War
began on 22nd November, 3067 B.C. Lord Balarama concluded His
pilgrimage on 12th December, 3067 B.C. The winter solstice occurred on
13th January, 3066 B.C. Bhishma died on 17th January, 3066 B.C. The
comet Mahaghora appeared at the asterism Pushya in October, 3066 B.C.
inally, it should be mentioned that the said seminar officially
accepted that the Mahabharata War began, as mentioned above, on 22nd
November, 3067 B.C.

So it appears that the Mahabharata War took place, not in Dwapara Yuga
but, in the 35th year of the present Kali Yuga. It is not unlikely
because according to the text of Mahabharata, the War took place at
the juncture of Dwapara and Kali Yuga. Last year, (2005 A.D.),
astrologer Arun Kumar Bansal, using computer software, calculated date
of birth of Lord Krishna and it was 21st July, 3228 B.C. So it appears
that during the Mahabharata War, age of Lord Krishna was 161 years. At
the first sight, it may appear to be absurd. But it should be
mentioned here that, according to Hindu scriptures, the normal life
span of human beings is 400 years in Krita (or Satya), 300 years in
Treta, 200 years in Dwapara and 100 years in Kali Yuga. In fact,
during the Kurukshetra War, most of the military top brass of both
Kauravas and Pandavas were more than 100 years old.

To conclude, it should be mentioned here that the discovery of the
ruins of the city of Dwaraka by the renowned archaeologist Dr. S. R.
Rao, under the Arabian Sea, provides another strong evidence that Lord
Krishna and the story of Mahabharata were a reality and not simply
poet’s fancy.
EXLEX
2021-07-04 13:51:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jahnu
Post by @
Arjuna er en frit opfundet tegneseriefigur, lidt lige som Anders And
Er du åndsvag? Få dig en uddannellse, Kaj.
Den eneste forskel er vel, om han stammer fra den ene eller den anden
eventyrfortælling?

Personligt havde jeg nok valgt at sammenligne ham med Fætter Guf.
Tilsvarende doven og uinteresseret i at gøre noget som helst.
Ellers havde han vel fået fingeren ud, og hjulpet sine tilhængere mod
Corona'en. Og have fyldt alverdens avisspalter med sin kunnen.

Men dét kunne han så heller ikke mane sig op til.




--
EXLEX
Jahnu
2021-07-06 03:47:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by EXLEX
Den eneste forskel er vel, om han stammer fra den ene eller den anden
eventyrfortælling?
Få dig en uddannelse, Jydeklovn.

Krishna siger:

Forsøg blot at lære sandheden at kende ved at nærme dig en åndelig
mester. Udspørg ham i ydmyghed og tilbyd ham din tjeneste. De
selv-realiserede sjæle kan videregive viden til dig, for de har set
sandheden. (Bg. 4.34)

Ved at modtage virkelig viden fra en selv-realiseret sjæl vil du
aldrig mere blive vildledt af illusion, for gennem denne viden vil du
forstå, at alle levende væsener ikke er andet end dele af den Højeste,
eller at de med andre ord er Mine. (Bg. 4.35)

Selvom du anses for den mest syndefulde af syndere, vil du, når du
befinder dig i denne båd af transcendental viden, blive i stand til at
krydse over elendighedernes ocean. (Bg. 4.36)

Ligesom den flammende ild forvandler brænde til aske, oh Arjuna,
brænder kundskabens ild alle karmiske reaktioner til aske. (Bg. 4.37)

I denne verden er der intet så ophøjet og rent som åndelige viden.
Sådan viden er den modne frugt af al mystisisme, og den, der er blevet
velbevandret i udførelsen af hengiven tjeneste, vil med tiden nyde
denne viden indeni sig selv. (Bg. 4.38)

En trofast person hengiven til åndelig viden, og som overvinder sine
sanser, er egnet til at modtage sådan viden, og når han har modtaget
den, opnår han hurtigt den højeste åndelige fred. (Bg. 4.39)

Men de uvidende og troløse, der tvivler på de åbenbarede skrifter, kan
ikke opnå Gudsbevidsthed; de falder ned. For den tvivlende sjæl findes
der hverken lykke i denne verden eller den næste. (Bg. 4.40)
@
2021-07-06 14:49:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jahnu
Post by EXLEX
Den eneste forskel er vel, om han stammer fra den ene eller den anden
eventyrfortælling?
Få dig en uddannelse, Jydeklovn.
denne krisna har aldrig eksisteret så han siger intet, men nogle
fantasifulde fupmagere har fået sig et godt grin da de fik dårerne til
at hoppe på historien om denne fantasifigur
EXLEX
2021-07-06 21:44:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by @
Post by Jahnu
Post by EXLEX
Den eneste forskel er vel, om han stammer fra den ene eller den anden
eventyrfortælling?
Få dig en uddannelse, Jydeklovn.
denne krisna har aldrig eksisteret så han siger intet, men nogle
fantasifulde fupmagere har fået sig et godt grin da de fik dårerne til
at hoppe på historien om denne fantasifigur
Jeg finder det udstrakt forbløffende, at Krista kun siger ting, når
andre "citerer" hende.

Tale for sig selv kan hun heller ikke.




--
EXLEX
Jahnu
2021-07-07 04:13:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by @
denne krisna har aldrig eksisteret så han siger intet, men nogle
fantasifulde fupmagere har fået sig et godt grin da de fik dårerne til
at hoppe på historien om denne fantasifigur.
Få dig en uddannele, klovn.

"The marvel of the Bhagavad Geeta is its truly beautiful revelation of
life's wisdom which enables philosophy to blossom into religion."
-- Herman Hesse


"So far as I am able to judge, nothing has been left undone, either by
man or nature, to make India the most extraordinary country that the
sun visits on his rounds. Nothing seems to have been forgotten,
nothing overlooked. "Land of religions, cradle of human race,
birthplace of human speech, grandmother of legend, great grandmother
of tradition. The land that all men desire to see and having seen once
even by a glimpse, would not give that glimpse for the shows of the
rest of the globe combined." --Mark Twain


Modern people have the idea, that just because some literature is very
old and describes fantastic events that defy the modern undertanding
of a natural world, then this literature must certainly be myths and
fantasies.

For instance, Mahabharata is one such piece of literature. In
Mahabharata events are described that totally defy our modern
understanding of physics. But Mahabharata was written by Srila
Vyasadeva. Why would an illustrious and venerated sage like Srila
Vyasadeva - the literary incarnation of God - waste his time by
telling adventure stories for kids? There is no good reason to think
that. Only prejudice and modern, atheistic indoctrination would make a
person think that.

Bhagavad Gita is originally a chapter of the Mahabharata. Bhagavad
Gita is the only book in the world in which, someone claiming to be
God, explains in detail about Himself, the soul and the world and how
everything inter-relates.

The reality-description offered in the Bhagavad Gita by Krishna
according to the three modes of material nature is by far the most
ingenious, sophisticated, consistent and scientific explanation of
reality available on the planet. It's a science that can be tested and
verified like any other science.

Note, that Krishna is the only person so far in human history, who has
defined reality as opposed to illusion or unreality. He has defined
real as that which is eternal and unreal as that which is temporary.

Try and ask a modern scientist, what is his definition of real and
unreal, and see how far you get... You'll get some technical mumbo
jumbo that boils down to - but, but it's all chemicals. That's what
you'll get - something that has absolutely nothing to do with the
reality you live in or the reality you perceive.

So to reject the Vedic literature as mythology, just because it
doesn't fit into the Mickey Mouse conceptions of modern man, is no
less than extremely ignorant.

In the following I have taken the liberty to reproduce an article by
Mr. Desh which establishes Krishna and Mahabharata as a historical
reality.

Krishna and Mahabharata - A Historical Reality

By Desh (Aug. 31, 2009)

Dr Manish Pandit, a nuclear medicine physician from UK is making a
movie on Krishna as a historic figure. Pandit has based his movie on
dates and timelines coming out of scientific based research by
credible evidence based on Archeology, Astronomy and Linguistics,
apart from Oral evidence from Indian tradition. Mahabharat War started
on November 22, 3067 BC. This comes out of astronomical evidence. And
the astronomical juxtapositions are not arbitrary or those that could
happen in any decade or such... but some of them have not happened
since.

They are THAT rare a phenomenon. Saturn at Rohini and Mars at Jyestha
with two eclipses - a Lunar eclipse at Kartik and Solar eclipse at
Jyesth. (these are from Udyoga and Bhisma Parvan).

(1)Amavasya occurs in Jyestha in 19 years

(2) (1) PLUS Solar Eclipse in Jyesth occurs in 340 years.

(3) (2) PLUS Saturn at Rohini occurs ONCE in 7000 years.

So, that constellation in astronomy has NOT occured since Mahabharat.
The date - exact one - when that would have happened is Nov 22, 3067
BC. Update: i found an article which is very well written, which I am
afraid may go away from that site. I have reproduced it at the bottom.
Not only that, but the latter events like destruction of Dwarka (based
on the astronomical events mentioned around that) occur at EXACTLY as
the text says - 36 years later.

Pandit has based his research on work of Dr Narhari Achar (a professor
of physics at the University of Memphis, Tennessee, in the US).
According to Achar, Krishna was born in 3112 BC. However, another
person has used dates and astronomical events to zero in on the dates
of that time, Arun K Bansal. According to him, Krishna was born on
July 21, 3228 BC and departed earth at 2 pm on February 18, 3102 BC.
That is when Kali Yuga is supposed to have started and Dwapar Yug came
to an end. So, Bansal's dates are a few decades prior to Achar's
dates. However, there are more people who side with Dr. Achar (refer
to the article reproduced below). Here are a few dates that can be
identified with respect to the dates by Dr. Achar: § Lord Krishna, on
His final peace mission, set out for Hastinapur on 26th September,
3067 B.C. when the moon was at the asterism Revati.

§ Lord Krishna arrived Hastinapur on 28th September, 3067 B.C., when
the moon was at the asterism Bharani.

§ The full moon and lunar eclipse at Krittika occurred on 29th
September, 3067 B.C.

§ The solar eclipse at Jyestha occurred on 14th October, 3067 B.C.

§ Lord Balarama set out for pilgrimage on 1st November, 3067 B.C.

§ The War began on 22nd November, 3067 B.C.

§ Lord Balarama concluded His pilgrimage on 12th December, 3067 B.C.

§ The winter solstice occurred on 13th January, 3066 B.C.

§ Bhishma died on 17th January, 3066 B.C.

§ The comet Mahaghora appeared at the asterism Pushya in October, 3066
B.C.

Mahabharat dates and Historical Events

Interestingly, the decades when Dwapar Yuga is supposed to have ended
and Kali Yug supposed to have started as per these dates.. were also
the years of some MAJOR climatic shift on earth - due most probably to
major shifts in Solar Activity! Some of the MAJOR things that
happened:

§ Sahara region changed from a habitable land to a barren desert!

§ Glaciers Expanded covering plants.

§ Atmospheric temperatures fell drastically.

This was also the time, when Harrapan Civilization or Sindhu-Saraswati
Civilization is supposed to have began.

Some people believe that Mahabharat was a Nuclear War. Why? Because of
some explanations that defy contemporary knowledge of weapons that
people of THAT time could conceivably have created. Weapons with such
impact could not have been conjured up just out of nowhere..
REPEATEDLY.. in various parts of the text. See below for one such
description of its effects. It is not surprising that even in the
modern world, Robert Oppenheimer, Nuclear Scientist jumped up after
seeing the Atomic blast and cited a similar verse from Gita (part of
Mahabharat).

Now, if you see the extreme climactic changes - creation of desert out
of habitable land in Sahara and drastic fall in atmospheric
temperature as if Solar Activity had changed - it may not be entirely
unlikely, that those climatic shifts may have mimicked a Nuclear
Winter.

Mahabharat is a fantastic epic and one which would have required MORE
than just imagination to write. No writer has ever written something
so completely OUT of whack with his times, mores and thinking... as a
Mahabharat within the context of History as taught in our school texts
suggests. It seems so fantastic that even the idea seems absurd! That
alone - the imagination of a writer 5000 years ago to write something
that (if linera historical progress is taken to be true) ONLY people
of today could have been/heard/experienced/imagined!

Its not just wishful imagination - as parting of seas et al - but very
exact descriptions of things that happen today and could happen
tomorrow. The philosophy of Gita is hitherto unparalleled in the
spiritual realm. No Saint, prophet, Master, or mystic has covered so
many topologies - Knowledge, Devotion, Action, - with so much mastery.
What I am trying to say is that you cannot get something out of
nowhere. You can only conjure up stuff that is there in your immediate
consciousness.

Fantasies and miracles in knowledge dont make sense to me! An
incandescent column of smoke and flame, as bright as ten thousand
suns, rose with all its splendour. It was an unknown weapon, an iron
thunderbolt, a gigantic messenger of death, which reduced to ashes the
entire race of the Vrishnis and the Andhakas. The corpses were so
burned as to be unrecognizable. Hair and nails fell out; Pottery broke
without apparent cause, and the birds turned white. .After a few hours
all foodstuffs were infected. .to escape from this fire the soldiers
threw themselves in streams to wash themselves and their equipment.”

Reference Links:

1. 'Lord Krishna existed. School texts are wrong'

2. Krishna (b. July 21, 3228 BC)

3. 33rd century BC

4. Pre-historic Nuclear War and ancient Flying Aircraft uncovered
Historicity of Mahabharat

In January 2001, Indian History Congress was holding its Annual
Conference at the Alipur Campus of the University of Calcutta and at
the concluding session of the said Conference the Nobel Laureate
economist Dr. Amartya Sen, while addressing the delegates, said that
Ramayana and Mahabharata do not have any historical value. These two
epics are simply mythology and nothing but poets’ fancy. He also said
that neither Rama nor Krishna was a historical personality and both of
them were simply mythical. Gandhiji wrote two commentaries on
Shrimadbhagavadgita, Anasaktiyoga and Gitabodha, and in the
introduction of the former work, he wrote, “Generally Mahabharata is
taken to be a historical work.

But in my opinion, it is not so. I cannot say that Ramayana and
Mahabharata are historical works. They are simply religious works. If
you are still inclined to treat them as historical works, then I
should say that they are nothing but the history of the Self (Atma).
They do not contain what happened thousands of years ago. On the
contrary, they are the reflections of what is happening today in every
soul”.

About Lord Krishna, he wrote, ”Krishna of Gita is the embodiment of
pure and divine knowledge, but without having any physical existence.
By this the Avatar Krishna is not denied at all, but only it is said
that He is mythical”. It is not difficult to understand that all such
utterances of Sen, Gandhi and many other like minded Indians derive
inspiration from the Western interpretation of Indian history. Most of
the Western scholars firmly believe that our ancestors grossly
neglected writing history and what we claim to be our history is
nothing but mythology. So M. Winternitz in his History of Indian
Literature writes, “History is one weak spot in Indian literature. It
is, in fact, non-existent.

The total lack of historical sense is so characteristic that the whole
course of Sanskrit literature is darkened by the defect”. The renowned
German scholar Max Muller, in his History of Ancient Sanskrit
Literature, writes, “No wonder that a nation like India cared so
little for history”. “With regard to history, the Hindus have done
really nothing but romances from which some truth may occasionally be
extracted”, says another Western scholar Major Wilford. These scholars
refuse to accept Ramayana, Mahabharata and the Puranas as historical
works as there are no mention of year and dates of the events
described therein.

But people of this country firmly believe that Ramayana, Mahabharata
and the Puranas are their history and not simply epics or poets’
fancy. So Dr. S. Kalyanaraman, the director of the Chennai based
Saraswati River Research Centre, says that the historicity of the
events described in Ramayana and Mahabharata is validated by two
evidences: one is based on tradition and the other is based on
jyotisha, or planetary configurations and other celestial events
narrated along with mundane events described in those epics, which may
be called sky epigraphs.

So far tradition is concerned, people of this nation believe that Lord
Rama was born on the day of Ramanavami and Lord Krishna was born on
the day of Janmastami and so on. In fact, there is a long list of such
traditional beliefs such as: Bhishma died on the Bhishmastami day, on
the day of Vijaya Dashami, Lord Rama celebrated the day, with His
army, as the day of victory after killing Ravana and defeating his
army just on the previous day, on the day of Deepavali, Lord Rama
returned to Ayodhya after 14 years of exile and the people of Ayodhya
celebrated the day and decorated their houses by lighting lamps and
the tradition is still being continued; the War of Kurukshetra began
on the day of Gita Jayanti and so on and so forth. It is really
strange that the people of Western Garhwal, now in the state of
Uttaranchal, observe every year the Duryodhana Festival.

There also exists a temple dedicated to Duryodhana where people offer
their puja and many believe that the city of Varanavat, where
Duryodhana tried to burn the Pandavas alive, was situated in that
locality. It is also really striking that people of this country offer
water in memory of Bhishma during shraddha ceremony. The point to be
highlighted here is that, had all these been poets’ fancy and
mythical, the traditions could not have been continued for such a long
time.

The aspect of celestial epigraph, or planetary positions described in
these epics, particularly in Mahabharata, undoubtedly shows that the
said epics do mention the dates of events described therein, which the
Western scholars failed miserably to understand. In Mahabharata alone
there are 150 instances where worldly events are mentioned along with
the planetary positions in the sky. And, in addition to that, other
astronomical events such as occurrence of an eclipse, or appearance of
a comet, or rare events like shower of meteorites have been mentioned.

A few of such examples may be mentioned below The Udyoga Parva of
Mahabharata narrates that, just before the War, Lord Krishna, in His
final peace mission, went to Hastinapur in the month of Kartika. He
set out on the day when moon was at the asterism Revati. On His way to
Hastinapur, Krishna took rest for a day at a place called Brikasthala,
and on that day the moon was at the asterism Bharani.

The day on which Duryodhana turned down each and every effort of Lord
Krishna to make peace and made the war inevitable, the moon was
resting at the asterism Pushya. And the Lord left Hastinapura with
Karna, on the day when the moon was yet to reach the asterism Uttara
Phalguni. As mentioned above, Karna accompanied Him to some distance
to see Him off and he then described to the Lord the positions of
planets in the sky and expressed his apprehension that such a
planetary configuration stood for very bad omen: such as large scale
loss of life and drenching of blood. Vyasadeva narrated all these
planetary positions in as many as sixteen verses as if someone was
describing it after visualizing them in the sky. It is also well known
that during the War, Lord Balarama went on a pilgrimage to holy places
along the banks of the River Saraswati and Mahabharata describes the
position of the moon during the entire course of pilgrimage.

For example, He set out on the day when the moon was at the asterism
Pushya and returned on the day when the moon was at the asterism
Shravana.

The Mahabharata also mentions the occurrence of a solar eclipse at the
asterism Jyestha and a lunar eclipse at the asterism Krittika, just
before the beginning of the War. It also mentions the appearance of a
comet at the asterism Pushya, on the 8th day of the bright half of the
month of Magha, when Bhishma died. On that day the moon was at the
asterism Rohini and it was the day of Winter Solstice.

The day on which Ghatotkacha, son of Bhima, died, the moon appeared at
the horizon at 2.00 a.m. The epic also mentions the occurrence of a
very rare astronomical event that took place prior to the War: three
eclipses, two lunar and a solar, within a lunar month of 27 days.
There is also another continuing tradition in this country that says
that the beginning of the present Kali Yuga, Kurukshetra War, death of
Lord Krishna and coronation of Emperor Yudhishthira were contemporary
events.

Famous astronomer Aryabhatta in his celebrated work Aryabhatiyam had
accepted the said tradition and used the word “Bharatapurvam” in the
said work very often and scholars agree that he used the word to refer
to such events that occurred before the Mahabharata War. In 1991, Dr.
D. Abhayankar and Dr. Ballabh of the Osmania University calculated
that the present Kali Yuga began on 7th February, 3104 B.C. But it is
now well accepted by the both Eastern and the Western scholars that
the present Kali Yuga began on the midnight of 17th and 18th February,
3102 B.C. And hence it can roughly be said that the Mahabharata War
took place nearly 5000 years ago from now.

Today, man has created a machine called computer which, though most
idiotic, can do mathematical calculations at an incredible speed.
According to a popular ad of a computer company, the calculations
which Johannes Kepler took ten years to complete, can be done today
within minutes, using a computer. It has therefore been possible for
the scientists, with the help of this fantastic machine, to determine
the dates of ancient events with unthinkable accuracy, using the
planetary configurations given in the Mahabharata , as inputs.

They have developed so many software for this purpose and to name a
few are: (1) Planetarium, (2) Ecliptic, (3) Lode star and the(4)
Panchang Software. In 2003, a two day seminar was held on 5th and 6th
January, in Bangalore, on “The Date of Mahabharata War: Based on
Astronomical Data Using Planetarium Software”, and a few of the
eminent researchers who submitted papers were (1) Dr. S. Balakrishna
of NASA, USA; (2) Dr. B. N. Narahari Achar, Department of Physics,
Memphis University, USA; (3) Dr. R. N. Iyengar, Department of Civil
Engineering, IISc, Bangalore; (4) Dr. S. Kalyanaraman, Saraswati River
Research Centre, Chennai and so on.

These scientists agree that there does not exist any contradiction
between any two descriptions of planetary configurations given in the
Mahabharata. Dr. S. Balakrishna has studied the eclipses, both solar
and lunar, described in the Mahabharata and tried to find out the
dates of those eclipses using the Lode Star Software. Generally 240
solar and 150 lunar eclipses occur in a century and during the period
from 3300 B.C. to 700 B.C. nearly 6000 solar and 4000 lunar eclipses
took place, though not all of them were visible from India, or to be
more precise, from Kurukshetra. Out of them, 672 were eclipse pairs,
or both solar and lunar eclipses within a lunar month. Dr. Balakrishna
studied the eclipses those have been mentioned in the text of
Mahabharata. In fact, there are mentions of solar eclipses at 8 places
in Mahabharata, out of which three of them are very important.

Firstly, the solar eclipse that is mentioned in the Sabha Parva. The
second solar eclipse which is mentioned in the Udyoga Parva to which
Karna tried to draw the attention of Lord Krishna when He was
returning from Hastinapur. The third important solar eclipse has been
mentioned in the Shalya Parva, that occurred along with two lunar
eclipses within a month. Many believe that there was a total solar
eclipse occurred on the 13th day of the War, which has been
allegorically mentioned as covering the sun by Lord Krishna with is
His Sudarshan Chakra.

The epic Mahabharata has so many other aspects which common people do
not know. Firstly, the epic as we see it today containing 100,000
verses was not the creation of Vedavyasa. He composed what was then
known as the Jai, containing only 8,800 verses. Later on Rishi
Vaishampayana enlarged it to contain 24,000 verses which was then
known as the Bharata. Finally Sauti, the son of the suta (the chariot
driver) Lomaharshana, gave it present form as we see now, containing
100,000 verses.

It has been mentioned earlier that just prior to the Mahabharata War,
a very rare event of three eclipses occurring within a lunar month
took place: a lunar eclipse followed by a solar one and then another
lunar eclipse. According to the text of Mahabharata, the solar eclipse
occurred just 13 days after the first lunar eclipse. Dr. S.
Balakrishna of NASA, USA, has searched all eclipse pairs, a lunar
eclipse followed by a solar eclipse after 13 days, that took place
from 3300 B.C. to 700 B.C., using the Lodestar pro-software.

He found that nearly 672 eclipse pairs have occurred within the said
period, out of which 27 pairs have been found to have less than 14
days time gap. And according to Dr. Balakrishna, the eclipse pair of
2559 is the best match with the description given in the text of
Mahabharata. But according to Dr. Kalyanaraman, the eclipses occurred
in 3067 B.C.- the lunar eclipse on 29th September at the asterism
Krittika and the solar eclipse on 14th October at the asterism
Jyestha. Researcher Dr. P. V. Holay examined 6 planetary
configurations given in the Mahabharata and concluded that the War
began on 13th November, 3143 B.C.

But Dr. K. S. Raghavan and his coworker Dr. G. S. Sampath Iyengar,
using the Planetarium software came to the conclusion that the
Kurukshetra War began on 22nd day of November, 3067 B.C. (according to
the present Gregorian calendar). Professor Dr. Narahari Achar of the
University of Memphis, USA, also arrived at the same conclusion using
the said Planetarium software. Dr. S. Kalyanaraman of the Saraswati
River Research Centre, Chennai, found the estimates of Dr. K. S.
Raghavan and Dr. Narahari Achar correct and, on that basis, calculated
the dates of some other important events of Mahabharata. For example:
Lord Krishna, on His final peace mission, set out for Hastinapur on
26th September, 3067 B.C. when the moon was at the asterism Revati.
Lord Krishna arrived Hastinapur on 28th September, 3067 B.C., when the
moon was at the asterism Bharani. The full moon and lunar eclipse at
Krittika occurred on 29th September, 3067 B.C.

The solar eclipse at Jyestha occurred on 14th October, 3067 B.C. Lord
Balarama set out for pilgrimage on 1st November, 3067 B.C. The War
began on 22nd November, 3067 B.C. Lord Balarama concluded His
pilgrimage on 12th December, 3067 B.C. The winter solstice occurred on
13th January, 3066 B.C. Bhishma died on 17th January, 3066 B.C. The
comet Mahaghora appeared at the asterism Pushya in October, 3066 B.C.
inally, it should be mentioned that the said seminar officially
accepted that the Mahabharata War began, as mentioned above, on 22nd
November, 3067 B.C.

So it appears that the Mahabharata War took place, not in Dwapara Yuga
but, in the 35th year of the present Kali Yuga. It is not unlikely
because according to the text of Mahabharata, the War took place at
the juncture of Dwapara and Kali Yuga. Last year, (2005 A.D.),
astrologer Arun Kumar Bansal, using computer software, calculated date
of birth of Lord Krishna and it was 21st July, 3228 B.C. So it appears
that during the Mahabharata War, age of Lord Krishna was 161 years. At
the first sight, it may appear to be absurd. But it should be
mentioned here that, according to Hindu scriptures, the normal life
span of human beings is 400 years in Krita (or Satya), 300 years in
Treta, 200 years in Dwapara and 100 years in Kali Yuga. In fact,
during the Kurukshetra War, most of the military top brass of both
Kauravas and Pandavas were more than 100 years old.

To conclude, it should be mentioned here that the discovery of the
ruins of the city of Dwaraka by the renowned archaeologist Dr. S. R.
Rao, under the Arabian Sea, provides another strong evidence that Lord
Krishna and the story of Mahabharata were a reality and not simply
poet’s fancy.
@
2021-07-07 17:32:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jahnu
Post by @
denne krisna har aldrig eksisteret så han siger intet, men nogle
fantasifulde fupmagere har fået sig et godt grin da de fik dårerne til
at hoppe på historien om denne fantasifigur.
Få dig en uddannele, klovn.
har allerede,

men du mangler så lige at få denne kris-nar til selv at sige noget,
foreløbig et der jo ikke sket
Jahnu
2021-07-08 23:10:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by @
Post by Jahnu
Få dig en uddannele, klovn.
har allerede,
Løgner. Det er helt indlysende du er en uuddannet lille kværulant,
uden en eneste selvstændig tanke i dit kødkranie.

"The religion and philosophy of the Hebrews are those of a wilder and
ruder tribe, wanting the civility and intellectual refinements and
subtlety of Vedic culture." - Henry David Thoreau
EXLEX
2021-07-08 23:21:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jahnu
Post by @
Post by Jahnu
Få dig en uddannele, klovn.
har allerede,
Løgner. Det er helt indlysende du er en uuddannet lille kværulant,
uden en eneste selvstændig tanke i dit kødkranie.
"The religion and philosophy of the Hebrews are those of a wilder and
ruder tribe, wanting the civility and intellectual refinements and
subtlety of Vedic culture." - Henry David Thoreau
Er det manden, som konstant citerer alle andre, som nu tillader sig at
påtale øvrige skribenters mangel på "selvstændig tankegang" ????

Sjældent har jeg set et større selvmål...




--
EXLEX
@
2021-07-09 17:38:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jahnu
Post by @
Post by Jahnu
Få dig en uddannele, klovn.
har allerede,
Løgner. Det er helt indlysende du er en uuddannet lille kværulant,
uden en eneste selvstændig tanke i dit kødkranie.
jeg tænker selv,

det eneste du indtil videre har mestret er at citere en eller anden
fupgud fra blot endnu en totalitær ideologi der smykker sig med titlen
religion
Jahnu
2021-07-10 05:23:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by @
jeg tænker selv,
hahaha D

--men, men jeg har set det på TV.
Post by @
det eneste du indtil videre har mestret er at citere en eller anden
fupgud fra blot endnu en totalitær ideologi der smykker sig med titlen
religion
Få dig en uddannelse, klovn.

"The Bhagavad Geeta has a profound influence on the spirit of mankind
by its devotion to God which is manifested by actions." - Dr. Albert
Schweitzer

"In the morning I bathe my intellect in the stupendous and cosmogonal
philosophy of the Bhagavad Geeta, in comparison with which our modern
world and its literature seem puny and trivial." - Henry David
Thoreau

"The reader is nowhere raised into and sustained in a bigger, purer or
rarer region of thought than in the Bhagavad Gita"
- Henry David Thoreau

"The religion and philosophy of the Hebrews are those of a wilder and
ruder tribe, wanting the civility and intellectual refinements and
subtlety of Vedic culture." - Henry David Thoreau

"In the whole world there is no study so beneficial and so elevating
as that of the Upanishads. It has been the solace of my life -- it
will be the solace of my death." -- Arthur Schopenhauer

"I owed a magnificent day to the Bhagavad Gita. It was as if an empire
spoke to us, nothing small or unworthy, but large, serene, consistent,
the voice of an old intelligence which in another age and climate had
pondered and thus disposed of the same questions which exercise us."
-- Ralph Waldo Emerson The famous poem "Brahm" is an example of his
Vedanta ecstasy.

"The most beautiful, perhaps the only true philosophical song existing
in any known tongue ... perhaps the deepest and loftiest thing the
world has to show." --Wilhelm von Humboldt
EXLEX
2021-07-10 11:46:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jahnu
Post by @
jeg tænker selv,
hahaha D
"The Bhagavad Geeta has a profound influence on the spirit of mankind
by its devotion to God which is manifested by actions." - Dr. Albert
Schweitzer
"In the morning I bathe my intellect in the stupendous and cosmogonal
philosophy of the Bhagavad Geeta, in comparison with which our modern
world and its literature seem puny and trivial." - Henry David
Thoreau
"The reader is nowhere raised into and sustained in a bigger, purer or
rarer region of thought than in the Bhagavad Gita"
- Henry David Thoreau
"The religion and philosophy of the Hebrews are those of a wilder and
ruder tribe, wanting the civility and intellectual refinements and
subtlety of Vedic culture." - Henry David Thoreau
"In the whole world there is no study so beneficial and so elevating
as that of the Upanishads. It has been the solace of my life -- it
will be the solace of my death." -- Arthur Schopenhauer
"I owed a magnificent day to the Bhagavad Gita. It was as if an empire
spoke to us, nothing small or unworthy, but large, serene, consistent,
the voice of an old intelligence which in another age and climate had
pondered and thus disposed of the same questions which exercise us."
-- Ralph Waldo Emerson The famous poem "Brahm" is an example of his
Vedanta ecstasy.
"The most beautiful, perhaps the only true philosophical song existing
in any known tongue ... perhaps the deepest and loftiest thing the
world has to show." --Wilhelm von Humboldt
Hvad var det Jahnu sagde :
"...uden en eneste selvstændig tanke i dit kødkranie."

Her ser vi så "produktet" af Jahnu's "egne" tanker.
Ukritisk efterplapren af andre, som han synes lyder smart.




--
EXLEX
@
2021-07-10 20:12:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jahnu
Post by @
jeg tænker selv,
hahaha D
--men, men jeg har set det på TV.
Post by @
det eneste du indtil videre har mestret er at citere en eller anden
fupgud fra blot endnu en totalitær ideologi der smykker sig med titlen
religion
Få dig en uddannelse, klovn.
bortset fra at vise hvor ubehøvlet og tankeløs du selv er så mangler
du stadigvæk at bevise at denne krisna siger noget som helst,
indtil videre er der kun din påstand
Jahnu
2021-07-11 00:58:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by @
bortset fra at vise hvor ubehøvlet og tankeløs du selv er så mangler
du stadigvæk at bevise at denne krisna siger noget som helst,
indtil videre er der kun din påstand
En gennemgang af den moderne, institutionaliserede kristendom.

Denne udsendelse vil påvise, hvordan den traditionelle fortolkning af
læren om Kristus, som i almindelighed godtages af kristne, ikke hviler
på sikker historisk grund. Den moderne kirkes dogmer er for en stor
dels vedkommende opstået af ren spekulation og er igennem
århundrederne blevet genstand for meget gennemgribende ændringer.

En vanskelighed ved at etablere bibelsk troværdighed er, at der ikke
findes et ord i Bibelen som direkte kan føres tilbage til Jesu hånd.
Alle beretninger om Jesu liv og lære er blevet nedtegnet af to af hans
tolv elever, Mattæus og Johannes, samt af to andre hellige mænd,
Markus og Lukas, som ikke fandtes blandt de oprindelige tolv, der
modtog Kristi personlige undervisning. De mest betydningsfulde
dogmatiske afhandlinger om Ny Testamente, hvorpå den kristne kirkes
autoritet formodes at hvile, tilskrives Paulus som heller ikke var
direkte elev af Kristus.

Et andet problem er, at de oprindelige evangelier på det aramæiske
sprog, ikke mere findes bevaret i deres helhed. Moderne fortolkninger
af Ny Testamente er i stor udstrækning baseret på gamle græske
oversættelser fra ældre aramæiske skrifter. En tredie vanskelighed er,
at indholdet i den moderne bibel ikke stemmer overens med Guds ord,
som det blev antaget af den kristne lære i dens ældste
før-romersk/katolske form. De ældre kristne som boede omkring
Middelhavet, i nærorienten samt i det jødiske samfund i det første og
andet århundrede efter Kristus, kendte en omfattende mangfoldighed af
mundtlige og nedskrevne hellige skrifter, hvoraf nogle endog dukker op
i vore dage, f.eks. Dødehavsrullerne og "De tolv helliges Evangelium".

Grundlaget for det som i dag er kendt som den kristne bibel, er
imidlertid resultatet af en speciel romersk formulering af teologien,
som fandt sted imellem det andet og det fjerde århundrede efter
Kristus. Den moderne bibel var et resultat af en gradvist løbende
kanonisering (officiel kirkebekræftigelse) af visse skrifter.
Historien om denne kanonisering af Bibelen er beskrevet kortfattet i
den ny katolske encyklopædi. Bemærk den tidlige forskel ved de
vestlige kanoniske bøger. I øst var de kanoniske bøger mere flydende
og omfattede mange bøger, som nu ikke anerkendes som kanoniske (d.v.s.
anerkendt af den katolske kirke). Justinus anerkendte f.eks. ethvert
skrift som forkyndte de gode nyheder - og mange kunne opfylde denne
definition. I vest var de kanoniske bøger mere juridiske og
regelrette, med en stræben efter snarere at udelukke end at medtage
hellige bøger. Ikke før end i det fjerde århundrede opnåede kirken en
stabilisering af de kanoniske bøger, og først ved kirkemødet i Trent i
1546 opnåede de kanoniske bøger deres dogmatiske udformning.

De romerske kristne tilsidesatte således en stor del af de ældre
kristne skrifter, som var anerkendt i almindelighed andre steder.
Dette kunne måske bero på deres manglende evner til at forstå og følge
undervisningen deri. Politiske interesser kan heller ikke
tilsidesættes som en årsag til den romerske sekterisme. Moderne
kritikere af den katolske lære anklager de gamle kirkefædre for at
have udnævnt visse læremestre, kendt som censorer, til at ændre den
gamle kristne læres original-erkendelser gennem udeladelser,
justeringer og fortolkninger for at skrifterne kunne tilfredsstille
kejser Konstantin af Rom, som kort forinden havde omvendt sig til den
kristne lære og som var vant til den hedenske livsstil i den datidige
dekadente kultur. Biskopperne i Rom var opsatte på at deres samfunds
trossatser, såsom den kejserlige trosbekendelse, skulle indføres i det
romerske rige og til dette formål behøvede de Konstantins støtte.

Det er en kendsgerning at Konstantin, efter indstilling fra den
romerske kirkes ledere, sammenkaldte til kirkemødet i Nikea i år 325
e.Kr., af sekteriske årsager (d.v.s. for at fastlægge den ariske
kristendom). Kirkemødet i Nikea indstiftede den romerske kirke som den
kristne verdens centrum, og den romerske kirkes tolkning som
overordnet. På kirkemødet i Karthago 397 e.Kr., forbød den romerske
kirke officielt læsning af sådanne kristne skrfter, som ikke var
godkendte af den romerske hieraki (d.v.s. præstevælde). Bibelen blev
således for altid berøvet visse afsnit i Ny Testamente, da de blev
anset for at være apokryfiske (d.v.s. af tvivlsom oprindelse).
Ligeledes bør det bemærkes at der findes afsnit i den romersk-katolske
udgave af Det Gamle Testamente, godkendt i Karthago, som anses for at
være apokryfiske af jøderne, som gør gældende at Det Gamle Testamente
er et af deres egne hellige skrifter - Toraen.

Kirkefædrenes ræsonnementer ang. hvad der var apokryfisk og hvad ikke,
har i forgangne tider været et stort kontroversielt anliggende blandt
teologer, i særdeleshed fordi påvirkningerne fra apokryfiske bøger er
levet videre fra den gamle tid i traditionel kristen lærdom. Der
findes brudstykker af Ny Testamente, som tilskrives Leuceus Carinus,
en af Johannes' følgesvende - på samme måde som Lukas var det til
Paulus. Hans frembringelser daterer sig i et tidsrum indenfor hundrede
år omkring korsfæstelsen og blev forkastet af den romerske kirke, som
værende gnostisk fejllære (gnusis er et græsk ord som etymologisk,
d.v.s. ordbilledmæssigt, er forbundet med sanskrit-ordet gyana; begge
ord betyder viden eller kundskab).

Den europæiske kristendom har i lang tid betragtet gnosticismen som
ikke-kristen, eller i bedste fald som kristendom med kompromisser. Den
ældre katolske filosof Origenes var blandt de første kirkelige
talsmænd der forsøgte at adskille kristi lære fra østerlandsk mystik.
Og siden den tid har man forkyndt gnosticismen som en fremmed
indflydelse på kristendommen. Alligevel er det ikke så ligetil at
afvise den gamle gnostiske evangelier, som om de ikke hørte til den
ægte kristne tradition.

Otto Pfleiderer, fhv. professor i praktisk teologi ved universitet i
Berlin, har skildret Leucius' produkt som "tidlig kristen litteratur"
og af stor betydning for forståelsen af den periode. Med henvisning
til Jesu dom foran Pontius Pilatus, genfunden i en anden før-katolsk
gnostisk tekst - Petri Evangeliet - forklarer dr. Pfleiderer at det er
en tolkning af historien som er enklere og derfor uden tvivl ældre end
den "ejendommelige beretning", nemlig den moderne tolkning i Mattæus.
Trods det, er den gnostiske beskrivning af Jesu Kristi liv praktisk
taget ukendt i dag.

Læren om ordet, sådan som det gives i det moderne Johannes Evangelium,
er et centralt mysterium i kristen teologi, som giver en antydning af
den virkelige identitet af personen Kristus. Der foreligger dog bevis
på, at læren om ordet undervistes af de gnostiske skoler i det gamle
nær-orienten - endog før Kristi fødsel. Hvis gnosticismen er kættersk,
hvordan kan da et så vigtigt teologisk spørgsmål som Jesu Kristi
identitet forklares i den moderne bibel med anvendelse af ældre
gnostisk terminologi? Envidere afslører "Johannes' gerninger" af
Leucius Carinus en forklaring til det kristne ord, som langt overgår
den udvandede og svært fattelige version i det moderne Ny Testamente.
I den gnostiske tekst finder vi at ordet, den guddommelige lære eller
kraft, adskiller den lavere naturs verden, materien, fra fra den
højere naturs verden, den åndelige verden.

Menneskeheden er fuldstændig opslugt af sanselig materie, men Kristus
(d.v.s. "ordet som blev kød") steg ned fra faderens, Guds åndelige
rige, for at frelse menneskeheden ved at åbenbare sig i en menneskelig
skikkelse - dog uden at miste sin kontakt med det åndelige rige. Med
andre ord: Kristus er et åndeligt væsen, som altid er transcendental
til (d.v.s. hævet over) den materielle verden, skønt han udadtil antog
en materiel skikkelse for at kunne forkynde. Hans formål var at hæve
menneskeheden til det transcendentale (åndelige) niveau. "Om du lytter
til mig, skal du blive som jeg er", sagde han.

Menneskene besidder den åndelige mulighed for at ophøje sig til Kristi
niveau. Da det imidlertid er faldet, kom Kristus for at vise vejen.
Eftersom Kristus aldrig var falden, men altid befandt sig i en åndelig
position som Guds evige tjener, er han intimt forbundet med Gud, som
hans søn. Men derfor er Guds faderskab på ingen måde udelukkende
begrænset til Kristus. Blandt de uvidende væsener i denne verden, var
Jesus Guds eneste gode søn, som kom for at tilbyde hver og en at træde
ind i Guds åndelige rige. Hver og en som ville gøre Guds vilje.

Det finder vi beskrevet i Mattæus (evangeliet). Kristi transcendentale
lære symboliseredes af lysets kors, som han åbenbarede for Johannes
under korsfæstelsen. Ifølge Leuceus åbenbarede Jesus Kristus sig for
Johannes i sin åndelige skikkelse på Oliebjerget, hvor Johannes
grædende havde gemt sig i en grotte, efter at han havde set Jesus på
korset på Golgata. Kristus forklarede for Johannes, at hans
korsfæstelse kun var et synsbedrag for at forvirre dem, som troede at
han var et almindeligt menneske: "Jeg er ikke ham som er på
trækorset", og at han faktisk ikke led nogen dødssmerte. Lysets kors,
Kristi virkelige symbol, omslutter himlene og skiller materiens lavere
verden fra det højere åndelige transcendentale rige. Kristus beretter
for Johannes, at dette kors undertiden var som en dør, undertiden en
vej, undertiden tro, undertiden en mystisk vision om vejen til åndelig
befrielse fra den smertefulde materielle verden af gentagen fødsel og
død.

"Thomas' gerninger iflg. Leuceus" giver et mere detailleret billede af
sjælens frelse fra illusionen, som fremstilles igennem en lignelse om
’gyptens drageperle. Deri sammenlignes sjælen med et kongeligt barn
fra lysets himmelske rige, som affører sig sin oprindelige himmelske
klædning (åndelige krop) og forlader sit hjem for at drage til ’gypten
(de materielle sansers verden). Der ifører sjælen sig ægypternes
snavsede klædedragt, en klædedragt af skam (den materielle krop). Mens
sjælen bor i ’gypten er den tvunget til at tjene de magter, som styrer
den lavere verden (de fysiske love). Denne tjeneste er så hård at dens
bevidsthed bliver omtåget af træthed og søvn. Sjælen vækkes af sin
slummer af et brev fra sin far, kongen selv (det åbenbarede ord -
Kristus). Kongens søn får i dette brev anvisninger på at redde en
kostbar perle fra en forfærdelig drage: befrie den og føre den til
lysets himmelske rige.

Perlen repræsenterer lysets guddommelige gnist, den åndelige del af
ens væsen, som må befries fra påvirkning af mørkets magter, der
repræsenteres af dragen. Dragen bliver dysset i søvn af kongens søn,
som uophørligt synger kongens navn i dens øre. Da sønnen vender
tilbage til lysets rige med perlen, efterlader han den materielle krop
og ifører sig en krop af lys, en åndelig krop, fra hvilken kongens
billede strålede i alle farver. I lysets rige hilses sjælen af sin far
og andre prinser, som på tilsvarende vis er prydet af åndelige kroppe.
Sammen går de for at møde kongernes konge, som er den største af dem
alle.

'Foruden dokumenterne til apostelgerningerne af Leucius Carinus,
findes der en bog om det ældre og nye testamente som hedder
"’gypternes Evangelium", hvori Kristus angives at sammenligne den
materielle krop med en klædedragt af skam. Vi erfarer også her at
fødsel og død har sine rødder i seksuelle begær. Dette evangelium var
alment værdsat i ældre tider - ja selv af Clement af Alexandria, som i
år 170 e.Kr., citerede det i sin anden epistel. Clement er af den
moderne katolske kirke anerkendt som kirkelig korrekt. Det er derfor
besynderligt at "’gypternes Evangelium" i dag anses for kættersk.

"Paulus' gnostiske gerninger" var iflg. Pfleiderer meget værdsatte i
den gamle kirke, men det forstår sig at de i dag er ukendte. Her
finder man, at de restriktioner som blev foreskrevet af apostelen
Paulus til hans tilhængere, var nogle helt andre end dem som genfindes
i Ny Testamente. Han lærte dem at være absolut afholdende, at afstå
fra at spise kød, at drikke vin og iøvrigt ophøre med synd af al
slags. "I skal ej genopstå fra de døde om i ikke forbliver kyske og
holder jeres kroppe ubesmittede" sagde Paulus.

"De tolv apostles gerninger ifølge Mattæus", en anden gammel bog i Ny
Testamente som blev forbudt af den romersk-katolske kirke, nævner at
Johannes Døberen - som døbte Jesus - udelukkende ernærede sig af
oliekager. Ifølge den moderne bibel, skal Johannes Døberen vistnok
have ernæret sig af græshopper. Før det sidste måltid siger Jesus,
iflg. den gnostiske beretning, til sine disciple: "Det er ikke mit
ønske at spise kød sammen med jer ved denne påskehøjtid". Ang. den
jødiske sædvane med at slagte offerdyr, siger Jesus: "Jeg er kommet
for at gøre en ende på ofringen" og "om i ikke ophører med at ofre,
vil Guds vrede aldrig vige fra jer".

Modstandere af katolicismen gør gældende, at de tidlige romerske
censorer udrensede de kristne skriftelige forkyndelser, som kunne
betragtes som kontroversielle for den materialistiske kejser
Konstantin, for at konsolidere den romerske kirkes magt og for at
indstifte den som statsreligion i det romerske kejserdømme. Som en
kommentar til denne forsætlige ændring af sandheden, udtaler G.J.
Huxley i sit evangelium om de tolv hellige: "Hvad disse gjorde, var
minutiøst at stryge visse forkyndelser af Vorherre i evangelierne, som
de (eller Konstantin) ikke havde til hensigt at følge, nemlig dem som
indebar forbud mod kødspisning og indtagelse af stærke drikke."
Imidlertid fordømte de romersk-katolske apologeter gnostikerne, som på
alle områder strengt fulgte disse principper, som kætterske
kultdyrkere. På denne måde faldt den højt udviklede gnostiske filosofi
i unåde hos flertallet af de kristne.

Hvad der end er tilbage af åndelighed i det moderne Ny Testamente, har
i alle tilfælde uden tvivl sin oprindelse at takke de gnostiske
skrifter for, som var rige på isoteriske lærdomme om Jesus Kristus.
Som Pfleiderer skriver: "Det var ikke rigtigt at fordømme gnosticismen
som helt modstridende og ødelæggende i sin indflydelse på
kristendommen. Tværtimod havde den den mest livskraftige indvirkning
på kristendommens udvikling." Men efter kirkemødet i Nikea, antog
kristendommen en fast, agnostisk (d.v.s. det helt enkle, uden
kundskab) kurs. Moderne kristne har ingen kundskab om, hvem Kristus
virkelig var, og hvad han i virkeligheden lærte. I dag anser kristne
f.eks. den anskuelse, at Jesus hverken led eller døde på korset, for
at være Gudsbespottelig. De fastholder at korsfæstelsen er den
vigtigste side af Guds barmhjertighed mod menneskeheden. At Kristus
led fysisk for vore synder, så at vi nu kan fortsætte med at synde i
hans navn. Det underliggende motiv for denne tro er åbenbar. Kristne
er utilbøjelige til at ville følge regulerende principper som
begrænser sansenydelse.

Derfor ønsker de frelse på den enklest mulige måde på bekostning af
Jesu lidelse på korset. Den kristne forestilling om opstandelsen er i
virkeligheden en forherligelse af den fysiske krop, i mangel på al
åndelig viden: viden om den evige sjæl, som den åbenbaredes i "Thomas'
gerninger" af Leucius eller i "Bhagavad gita", hvor det står
beskrevet, at for sjælen findes der hverken fødsel eller død. I stedet
identificerer moderne kristne udelukkende livet med den materielle
krop. Deres forståelse af Kristus er derfor begrænset til de mest
elementære og håndgribelige sansefornemmelser. De tror at Kristi
legeme var en almindelig sæk af kemikalier, præcis som en hvilket som
helst andet menneske, og at han blev helbredt og evig tre dage efter
sin død. Med hans nåde kommer hver sand kristen til på lignende måde
at blive belønnet med en evig fysisk tilværelse i sin egen opstandne
materielle krop, med hvilken han vil komme til at opleve sansenydelse
i himlen med sine opstandne familiemedlemmer og venner. Kilden til
denne tro er klar.

Oprindelig skelnede den gnostiske lære om ordet logos, klart imellem
materie og evig ånd, og identificerede Kristus som en budbringer fra
det evige åndelige rige, men agnosticismen i kirken har fordunklet
dette fortidige begreb, så at dagens kristne nu er ude af stand til at
forstå ånd (d.v.s. liv) og materie hver for sig. Evigt liv betyder nu,
iflg. moderne kristen logik, en evig fysisk krop. Denne tåbelighed har
kulmineret i den groteske læresætning om adventismen, hvor visse
kristne samfund tror, at sande kristnes grave vil åbne sig ved Kristi
genkomst og de døde kroppe rejse sig og følge Herren til himlen. De
moderne kristne agnostikere bør således betragtes som modstandere af
Kristus, eftersom de ikke vil ændre deres syndige vaner og stige op
til den åndelige platform, ved at følge deres herres instruktioner. I
stedet vil de trække Kristus ned på en materiel, fysisk platform og
bruge hans død som en undskyldning for at fortsætte med at bryde hans
bud. Sådanne materialistiske, ateistiske formasteligheder fordømmes i
"Johannes' gerninger" af Leucius. Kristi fremtræden i materiel
skikkelse var blot en lila, en guddommelig leg, som han selv udtrykte
det.

"Engang legede jeg med alting, og kunne alligevel aldrig tage
skade......"
"Dette som jeg nu åbenbarer mig i, er ikke hvad jeg er.
Det som jeg er, vil du få at se, når du er kommet til mig."

Til dem som troede at han virkelig var blevet naglet til korset for at
blive dræbt, sagde Jesus: "Jeg blev anset for at være det, jeg ikke
er. Jeg var ikke det, som jeg var for mange andre. De siger andre ting
om mig; lumpne ting, som jeg ikke har gjort mig fortjent til." I denne
beretning af Leuceus om korsfæstelsen, gik Johannes ned fra
Oliebjerget efter at have fået disse oplysninger fra Jesus, i dennes
åndelige skikkelse. Og han smilede til alle de andre som stod og
kiggede på, og troede at Jesus var ved at dø.

Den særegne romerske form for agnosticisme (d.v.s. uvidenhed), som
forbigik den sande transcendens ved Kristus og hans læresætninger,
resulterede i mange andre bedragerier i religionens navn. Alt eftersom
kristendommen bredte sig fra Rom til landene i det nordlige Europa,
opstod behovet for kristne tjenere som kunne oversætte Bibelen fra
græsk og latin, til de nye proselytters modersmål. Dette medførte en
endnu større afvigelse fra Kristi oprindelige budskab, f.eks. findes
der nu 19 henvisninger til Kristi og hans disciples påståede
kødspisning, som genfindes i Karun Jacob's udgave af evangelierne, som
engelsktalende kristne påberåber sig, når det gælder om at forsvare
deres egen kødspisning.

Trods det, betyder ikke t af disse ord "kød" i den oprindelige græske
oversættelse:
brome (anvendt 4 gange) betyder mad,
brusimus (anvendt 1 gang) betyder det, som kan spises,
brusis betyder mad eller spisningens handling (dette at spise),
prosphagion betyder noget at spise,
trophe (anvendt 6 gange) betyder næringsmiddel og
phago (anvendt 3 gange) betyder at spise.
Alle disse ord er oversat med "kød" eller sat i forbindelse med at
spise kød.

Den romersk-katolske kirke havde en stor interesse i at bibeholde de
europæiske massers uvidenhed. Ved ikke at gøre Jesu lære til andet,
end et spørgsmål om blind tiltro til kirkelige læresætninger, blev
kristendommen en nem religion at sprede. Naturligvis voksede kirkens
vælde, magt og indflydelse med stormskridt, eftersom den ikke
modarbejdede de fundamentale syndige vaner med kødspisning og
beruselse som de mest bemærkelsesværdige, som var fremtrædende i den
europæiske såkaldte kultur. Den katolske bibel, forkortet og
forvansket af kirkefædrene, var igennem århundrederne et let
tilgængelig skrift for yderligere misfortolkninger for politiske og
økonomiske mål.

Endnu i dag ved meget få mennesker, at der findes 40 hyldekilometer i
Vatikanets arkiv, som er fuldt med urørte, uoversatte, gamle kristne
og jødiske skrifter, som i århundreder har været gemt væk fra
almenhedens øjne - tilsyneladende for at forhindre problemfyldte,
doktrinære stridigheder i at komme for dagens lys. Ting som skulle
kunne vende op og ned på traditionelle katolske teser fra
århundredernes forløb. Overalt hvor der i middelalderen fandtes
gnostisk fejllære, såsom troen på reinkarnation eller forsagelse af
kød og vin i kosten, hvilket kunne være en trussel mod de kirkelige
dogmers suverænitet, blev de hensynsløst udryddet af inkvisitionen.
Imens begyndte kirkens biskopper at tilbyde deres mægtige lægmænd
verdens første livsforsikringsbrev, garanteret velsignelse for frelse
til fantasipris.

Givetvis kunne en kirke, som var baseret på bedrageri, bluff og synd
og undertrykkelse af sandheden med vold, ikke eksistere i lang tid,
uden at sætte sig i alvorlige vanskeligheder, hvilket skete ved den
protestantiske reformation i 1500-tallet. Hvor voldsom og forbitret
denne fejde end var, formåede den dog på ingen måde at udvide
menneskets forståelse af Bibelen. Den befriede blot Bibelen fra den
katolske kirkes private tolkningsprivilegium og placerede det i
hænderne på jævne mænd. Men Bibelen forblev mere eller mindre som den
altid havde været siden den var blevet sanktioneret af de romerske
katolikker. Der fandtes ingen blandt de protestantiske forkyndere, som
kunne afsløre dens oprindelige betydning, som var gået tabt for mere
end tusind år tilbage. Resultatet af reformationen var til syvende og
sidst, at den bibelske tolkning blev endnu mere bizar end tidligere.
Således er mange af vore dages kristne samfund opstået på den tid, og
ikke et eneste af disse er komment til nogen væsentlig forståelse af
Kristi sande transcendens og hans budskab til verden.


SLUTKOMMENTAR.

Vi skal fortsætte med denne analyse i endnu en udsendelse. Næste gang
skal vi høre om Kristi forsvundne pagt, hvorledes den pagt han indgik
med menneskene, fuldstændig er forvansket og tilintetgjort af den
moderne institutionaliserede kristendom.
Disse udsendelser skal ikke ses som et angreb på anderledes tænkende
eller andre religioner. Krishna-bevidsthed står ikke i modsætning til
nogensomhelst anden religion, fordi al religion nødvendigvis må have
samme kilde, nemlig Gud/Krishna/Allah.

Så hvorfor vi "kritiserer" en anden religion på denne måde, er for at
oplyse om en religion, der hævder at være den eneste sandhed. Som
hævder at alle anderledes tænkende er hedninge; at alle som ikke
følger deres sekteriske, dogmatiske fortolkninger og anvisninger af
deres skrift, faktisk er fordømte - der er endda nogle der tror, at de
som ikke følger denne vej, skal brænde evigt i helvede.

Det er selvfølgelig noget vrøvl, fordi Gud hverken er kristen, hindu
eller muhammedaner. Der er kun een Gud, og denne ene Gud tilbedes af
forskellige folk fra forskellige kulturer, på forskellig vis. Men
essensen er altid er den samme. Det vil man også se, hvis man
foretager en religionshistorisk undersøgelse, at de samme bud og
formaninger går igennem i alle religioner. Og at de samme beskrivelser
går igen i alle skrifter.

Alle beretningerne i Det Gamle Testamente har utvivlsomt sin
oprindelse i den vediske litteratur, hvor de samme beretninger findes
beskrevet (den vediske litteratur er vel at mærke flere tusinde år
ældre end Bibelen). Det vi opponerer imod er, at en religion som har
en lang tradition for tekstforvanskning - for at sige det mildt - i
dag anser sig selv som værende den eneste sande religion.
EXLEX
2021-07-11 02:22:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jahnu
En gennemgang af den moderne, institutionaliserede kristendom.
Denne udsendelse vil påvise, hvordan den traditionelle fortolkning af
læren om Kristus, som i almindelighed godtages af kristne, ikke hviler
på sikker historisk grund. Den moderne kirkes dogmer er for en stor
dels vedkommende opstået af ren spekulation og er igennem
århundrederne blevet genstand for meget gennemgribende ændringer.
For en gangs skyld et relevant indlæg fra Jahnu.
Som oven i købet er lidt interessant.

Foredrag, udsendt fra Radio Krishna 87.6 MHz, febr. 1992
Foredragsholder: Jahnu

Den tidligere udgave kan ses her :
https://groups.google.com/g/dk.videnskab.teologi/c/xKWIibtPbgs


Mon vi også får anden del?




--
EXLEX
Helle Jensen
2021-07-11 03:20:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by EXLEX
Post by Jahnu
En gennemgang af den moderne, institutionaliserede kristendom.
Denne udsendelse vil påvise, hvordan den traditionelle fortolkning af
læren om Kristus, som i almindelighed godtages af kristne, ikke hviler
på sikker historisk grund. Den moderne kirkes dogmer er for en stor
dels vedkommende opstået af ren spekulation og er igennem
århundrederne blevet genstand for meget gennemgribende ændringer.
For en gangs skyld et relevant indlæg fra Jahnu.
Som oven i købet er lidt interessant.
Foredrag, udsendt fra Radio Krishna 87.6 MHz, febr. 1992
Foredragsholder: Jahnu
https://groups.google.com/g/dk.videnskab.teologi/c/xKWIibtPbgs
Mon vi også får anden del?
Hvor mange tilhørere skulle vækkes da foredraget var slut?
--
Helle Jensen
EXLEX
2021-07-11 12:45:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Helle Jensen
Post by EXLEX
Post by Jahnu
En gennemgang af den moderne, institutionaliserede kristendom.
Denne udsendelse vil påvise, hvordan den traditionelle fortolkning af
læren om Kristus, som i almindelighed godtages af kristne, ikke hviler
på sikker historisk grund. Den moderne kirkes dogmer er for en stor
dels vedkommende opstået af ren spekulation og er igennem
århundrederne blevet genstand for meget gennemgribende ændringer.
For en gangs skyld et relevant indlæg fra Jahnu.
Som oven i købet er lidt interessant.
Foredrag, udsendt fra Radio Krishna 87.6 MHz, febr. 1992
Foredragsholder: Jahnu
https://groups.google.com/g/dk.videnskab.teologi/c/xKWIibtPbgs
Mon vi også får anden del?
Hvor mange tilhørere skulle vækkes da foredraget var slut?
Det vides ikke - hinduske teknikere kan vist ikke tælle så langt.
...eller noget..




--
EXLEX
@
2021-07-11 09:10:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jahnu
Post by @
bortset fra at vise hvor ubehøvlet og tankeløs du selv er så mangler
du stadigvæk at bevise at denne krisna siger noget som helst,
indtil videre er der kun din påstand
En gennemgang af
<klip>

altså siger krisna som forventeligt slet ingen ting
Jahnu
2021-07-14 10:29:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by @
altså siger krisna som forventeligt slet ingen ting
Ikke til dig i hvert fald :)

"Sjælen er atomisk i størelse og kan opfattes gennem fuldkommen
intelligens. Denne atomiske sjæl flyder i de fem slags (indre)
luftstrømme (prana, apana, vyana, samana og udana), befinder sig i
hjerteregionen, og spreder sin indflydelse over hele kroppen på de
legemeliggjorte væsener. Når sjælen er blevet renset for besmittelsen
af de fem slags materielle lufstrømme kommer dens åndelige indflydelse
til udtryk"

(Mundaka Upanishad 3.1.9)

Vidal
2021-07-02 16:39:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jahnu
Jeg mener, hvem ved ikke hvem Arjuna er, undtagen en eller anden fed
og grim flæskedansker over fra det mørke Jylland?
Det er vist mig og ikke Lyrik. Signalementet passer på mig.
EXLEX
2021-07-03 00:12:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vidal
Post by Jahnu
Jeg mener, hvem ved ikke hvem Arjuna er, undtagen en eller anden fed
og grim flæskedansker over fra det mørke Jylland?
Det er vist mig og ikke Lyrik. Signalementet passer på mig.
Jeg vidste ikke, at der var så mørkt i Hinnerup?

Til gengæld finder jeg det morsomt, at Jahnu fortsat udviser
herrefolksmentaliteten. Alene baseret på folks adresse.

Hvad mon hans Krista ville sige til dét?




--
EXLEX
Lyrik
2021-07-05 00:40:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jahnu
Post by Lyrik
Jeg kan ikke læse verdens længste bog for at få svar på hvem Arjuna var!
Du har læst den? Hvad med at du med egne ord svarer mig?
Hvad med at du får dig en uddannelse, fjols?
Jeg mener, hvem ved ikke hvem Arjuna er, undtagen en eller anden fed
og grim flæskedansker over fra det mørke Jylland?
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Tal pænt pseudo-inder. Arjuna var en bueskytte der som Krishna gik efter
flere koner. Krishna kalder ham den svært bevæbnede skønt skrællingen
kun var bevæbnet med bue og pil, udover den altid beredte stive pik!
Han bortførte Krishna kodrengs søster og fik lov til at beholde hende.

"Svært bevæbnet"!;-)))

En fed jyde kunne pille ham ned ved dueskydning.


jenserik
Vidal
2021-07-02 16:39:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jahnu
Post by Lyrik
Hvem var Arjuna og hvornår og hvor levede han? Og hvad havde han gang i?
Prøv at læse Mahabharata. Mahabharata er det længste stykke litteratur
i verdenshistorien. Bhagavad Gita er oprideligt et kapitel i
Mahabharata. Den er længere en både Illiaden, Odysseen, Biblen og
Koranan tilsammen. Jeg mener, den kan fås i en forkortet udgave på
dansk, af Guni Martin
I min ungdom læste jeg (i) Bhagavad Gita. Jeg fik den foræret af en
flok tosser der stod i kjortler og messede på vort lokale købetorv.
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2021-07-03 00:17:03 UTC
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Post by Vidal
Post by Jahnu
Post by Lyrik
Hvem var Arjuna og hvornår og hvor levede han? Og hvad havde han gang i?
Prøv at læse Mahabharata. Mahabharata er det længste stykke litteratur
i verdenshistorien. Bhagavad Gita er oprideligt et kapitel i
Mahabharata. Den er længere en både Illiaden, Odysseen, Biblen og
Koranan tilsammen. Jeg mener, den kan fås i en forkortet udgave på
dansk, af Guni Martin
I min ungdom læste jeg (i) Bhagavad Gita. Jeg fik den foræret af en
flok tosser der stod i kjortler og messede på vort lokale købetorv.
Det minder meget om de kristne, som uddeler bibler.




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